Author of "Brotherhood of Murder"

Showtime presents

December 12, 1999

Thomas Martinez, author of "Brotherhood of Murder" chats about his book and the Showtime Original Movie-starring William Baldwin, Peter Gallagher and Kelly Lynch-based on it.

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Showtime: Welcome to our chat with author Thomas Martinez, whose book is based on his experiences as a member of the hate group, The Order. Thanks for joining us. And now, here's Thomas Martinez.

Thomas Martinez: Hello everyone.

Return Of The G: Why on earth did you ever join a hate group?

Thomas Martinez: Growing up in Philadelphia, I had a lot of racial problems in the high school I attended. That was the first seed of experience I had from minorities of being threatened. I left school after grade 10, when I was sixteen, after having been threatened by black gang members in the school I attended, and my life was very upside down, as the movie showed. My wife, Susan, was 16 when she became pregnant. One night I was watching TV when I saw David Duke on TV and that's when it all started.

Kalatuu: At what point did you become wary of the tactics of The Order or realized that it wasn't right?

Thomas Martinez: Actually, a few times. Mainly Bob Mathews was very charismatic, and he came around at a time when I had just bought a 'handyman's house' -- the roof was collapsing, my car had been repossessed, I had a cast on -- and he gave me money. He got my feet wet; I became dirty with stolen money and that was his whole goal -- to get me dirty, to accept loot. In society these so-called cults' charismatic leaders -- that's the first thing they do, work on the weak people, people who are going through hard times. That's what Bob did. He was looking for people in the same circumstances I was in. It's like in Germany, when you look back at national socialism -- those were people who were well-educated. So how did a whole country fall for the ideology of national socialism? So here's a kid who's a tenth-grade dropout and not well-educated. How do people get pulled into these legit religious groups and go too far into that? People are weak and want to be accepted, to belong. They want friendship. And that was me. All these groups are cults. People give them the title 'hate groups', but they should add the word 'cult' next to it, because that's what they are.

Lou736: What made you stay with The Order?

Thomas Martinez: I was never a member of The Order. In the movie, it shows me taking the oath, but I never took it. The details are in my book. I was going to become a member of this group as a member of the FBI, but my cover was blown in 1984. Bob Mathews took a liking to me and that's why I stayed. The book has a lot more details than the movie was able to show. Bob took me in as a friend. He didn't talk about Brinks or armored cars; he was using me to bring me in deeper and deeper as a friend. It was strictly money that brought me in. There are some people that are stronger than Tom Martinez was. I can't realize how weak a person I was at the time. I made mistakes. And that's why I'm doing what I'm doing today - for almost 15 years, working with school children, because if I had met a Tom Martinez when I was a schoolkid I would never have become a member or been involved with these groups because I wouldn't want to live the life of a Tom Martinez and what he has done to himself and his family.

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